Author and journalist Joshua David Stein talks about his newest cookbook, 'Cooking for your Kids.'
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Kristen Miglore: Hi, I'm Kristen. Miglore, lifelong genius hunter for a decade. I've been unearthing the recipes that have changed the way we cook. Now on The Genius Recipe Tapes, we go behind the scenes with the geniuses themselves. This week, I'm talking with Joshua David Stein, journalist, author, editor, and dad. He's written cookbooks, memoirs, and children's books and now has a new book out combining all of those genres with a little secret self-help thrown in. It's called “Cooking for Your Kids: At Home with the World's Greatest Chefs.” And in it are recipes from 50 chefs from across the world that they feed their kids at home with photos they took themselves and advice for how they make it all work for them, which is sometimes messy and not always Instagram perfect. But is practical and fueled by love. And a quick heads up to any of you listening with young children. There is one instance of swearing in this episode, in the second half. Here's Joshua to tell us more about what drove him to write this book.
Joshua David Stein: I had the same motivation, pretty much that I did when I wrote my first children's book, called, “Can I Eat That?” I've been writing about chefs and writing about food for my entire career. And I love food, and I love chef-y food. And I found that when I had my kids, that they did not love that food. Especially with my older son, Achilles, we'd end up fighting about food all the time at the table. And it turned this thing that I loved into something that I couldn't share with my kids. So I wrote that children's book to be playful about food and bring some joy into it. It wasn't me saying you need to eat this, or greens are good for you. There's no purpose other than fun and enjoyment and bringing parents and kids together around food. As best as I can tell, everyone in their private moments has these issues.
Sometimes, I find the difference when you work in food as a chef or a writer, or in that strange cumulus of influencing whatever that performative action is. , the only thing different is that you feel ashamed sort of talking about it. But I wanted to take a little bit of that aspirational fiction and rough it up. To show that no, everyone's, we're all kind of in the same boat, and it doesn't matter if you have three Michelin stars, sometimes your kids are going to say no, I want chicken nuggets. Even though the book offers a hundred recipes in there, and they are a great hundred recipes. I want parents to walk away from it knowing that, oh, if I'm going to get my kids six chicken nuggets and then a chicken nugget sandwich, which is chicken nuggets between two pieces of bread. That's okay. A chicken nugget is an act of love because what you're saying there is, I like chicken confit with asparagus jus. And that's what I think is delicious. But what do you, as someone I love, what do you think is tasty? So it's stepping outside of one's likes and aversions to see the person in front of you.
Kristen: Wow. That really hit me. You're showing that you see them and that you're listening to them and what they want matters.
Joshua: What I hope to do with the book is to partially mirror that this goes on in the households of these chef contributors and provide full-on recipes. They are recipes that if you want to follow as a traditional recipe, you can. But they are malleable in the sense that maybe I couldn't confit this parsnip. And screw the rest of the salad, but this one thing maybe my kid will like, or there was a chef, there's a chef in here Asma Khan, and she has a recipe for spicy scrambled eggs. And there's another instance where a couple, Mina Park and Sean Brock. They have kimchi, and they talk about rinsing the kimchi for their kids. I take little bits and then work that into your, the flow of your life,
Kristen: The Asma Khan recipe, where she talks about putting the chilies in, but then putting them in big chunks so you can avoid them. So you're scooping out the eggs, but it's still introducing a bit of the spice. I like that encouragement, too, rather than altogether avoiding chilies. Because you're afraid your kid might get scared off of chilies forever.
Joshua: And if you don’t like chilies, you got to work that into your, a person to people too. I will say that I was very excited to do the illustrations.
Kristen: Yes.
Joshua: This is the first book that I've illustrated. Partially because all the chefs provided their own, and some chefs didn't provide any photos. And I made a bunch. I mean, I think I made all of the dishes, but I also made styled and photographed a bunch of them. And you can tell, some are on my kitchen table, somewhere on my floor. I was going around my apartment, looking for unique surfaces. So that was fun. And then I got to illustrate the book, which is my favorite part because it gave me a chance to include my favorite dad joke, which is one piece of pasta talking to his friend pizza, pasta, and saying "penne for your thoughts." So there's a lot of dad jokes.
Kristen (voiceover): Hey, it's Kristen. If you're enjoying this chat with Joshua, head over to The Genius Recipe Tapes and hit subscribe. So you don't miss out on other stories like this one and our recent conversation with Daniela Galarza at the Washington Post about the implications of the word exotic. And why it's curiously only used to describe certain things like cars, food, and women. And how we can have productive conversations even, and especially when we disagree. In the second half of this episode, we get to hear more about what Joshua learned not to do by the time he had his second kid. And the moment that I felt most like an alien in my new parent group meet you back here for that.
Kristen: So one of the things that I loved about Joshua's book is that in addition to recipes, that would be delicious in their entirety. For example, Brooke, Williamson's egg in a hole with crispy pancetta and broccoli. He also includes these comforting little anecdotes and parenting philosophies on the side. The sentiments that Brooke describes are familiar refrains, especially for new parents or any working parents with young children. She describes having tremendous guilt about working and how much time she was spending away from her son. But then she reveals a happy ending. Here's more from Brooke's story in her own words.
“My husband, Nick, and I opened Hudson house. When Hudson was one year old, there was a period when Nick and I would be at work from 10:00 AM to 3:00 AM with ones that were taking over for another. And Nick and me trading off nights of sleep. But then later in the story, she continues now 12 years in, I've got a well-adjusted kid. Who's with us 90% of the time and can adapt to any given situation. He's flexible, easy to try. And a wonderful all-around human being. I wouldn't trade any of it for better timing.”
Here's Joshua for more on that.
Joshua: As a parent, I always felt alienated. If you see something aspirational and feel inspired, that is great. I am not that way. I see something aspirational, and I feel so deficient. What am I doing wrong that my life isn't that? That was why I did the book. I wanted 50 of the world's greatest chefs to tell me, yes, it's fucking hard, and it doesn't always work.
Kristen: Well, I'm sure you've probably heard this from other people as you've, as you've discussed the challenges of feeding young kids. But I was a super picky eater when I was little; I didn't eat salad until about 12. All my hamburgers were plain. And then, in enough time, I completely fell in love with food and write about and eat everything now. And so if I, sometimes I think it's a matter of being ready and then once you do it, you dive in. So I don't know. Do you ever think about that with your kids?
Joshua: I think our conflicts about eating became about so much more than food. They became about power and the imposition of will and independence. I wish that I had been more long-sighted and secure in knowing that it's okay. If you make everything a battle, it becomes a battle, no matter what. Our relationship has kind of improved, and it's improved because I've stopped pushing. And I do hope that when he gets older, he'll grow to love food, but it needs to mean something different from what it means. And maybe when you're 12, although I don't know if this is, this is only what I've seen in my, in my child-rearing is that maybe when he's 12 or a little bit older, he'll make that differentiation that it does mean, it can be joyful. That said, when I had my younger son Augie, I never pushed anything. I pushed less, and he eats. I think it's a pushing that's problematic. And I think if, and to go back to something I said earlier, it's okay. It'll be fine. But it's so hard as a first-time parent to know that.
Kristen: Are there any ways that the chefs, various advice, and tactics have stuck with you, and you've folded them into your life since working on the book?
Joshua: Realistically, what has stuck with me is that everyone is doing their best. I'm doing my best. My kids aren’t going to starve. They don't eat super well, but they know they're loved. All of these chefs to the extent that I could make them comfortable enough, to be honest about it. And I had the time to delve into it with them. They all express the same thing. It is hard. You can still find a lot that's useful, but ultimately it's okay. Whatever you're doing, ultimately, it's okay.
Kristen: People crack it in all different ways. I would have assumed that food was the one thing I would have made space for when I had a baby. And I remember in my; I want to call it a parent group, but unfortunately, it seems they're still all called mom groups because, for the most part, we're the ones on parental leave for the longer duration. So it was a mom group. And I remember people talking about how to get the food done for the whole family. When we had a two-month-old, and she spoke about using the baby, one of the moms talked about using the baby's nap time to chop the asparagus and toast the pine nuts. I'm trying not to drop all of my snacks on the floor. I'm not toasting pine nuts. I'm happy to eat a handful of raw pine nuts. If I have them,
Joshua: I can’t deal with the raw pine nuts! It needs to be lightly toasted. No. It's not happening,
Kristen: It was fantastic to see that some people are that organized, that they can think ahead to dinner in that way and parse out the prep steps when they do have time.
Joshua: You never know the other factors in someone else's life and other family's lives, which afford them the ability to have this; you meet them. And someone talks about pine nuts, and you feel bad that you're not toasting pine nuts, but 10,000 other things are going on that aren't discussed because they make you feel uneasy. They make everyone feel nervous about it. This is not the book’s topic, but I feel strongly about it because I still struggle with it. And I think the pandemic has brought this out, at least in my social circles. You spend all your time feeling less than or that you get sideswiped by the fact that, oh, you thought these were all your peers, and they are wavelengths ahead of you.
Kristen: That is why this book is so unique because you are bringing all of these other dimensions; it’s not a list of recipes,
Joshua: Creating something worthwhile. It doesn't rely on any, anything perfect or anything external. It's earthy. It's here. It's in daily life. This is perfect; what’s going on now. The struggle that I have at the table with Achilles or Augie, that’s perfect. That's what's going on. The more I compare myself to that constructed reality, the less happy I am at the table with my kids. So to show chefs in this book, they also have these day-to-day moments of struggle, that they also struggle. It's not to degrade them, and it's not to belittle them or take their shine off or anything. It’s to say; even your idols also have off days. And that I hope people feel better about themselves.
Kristen: It does.
Kristen (voiceover): Thanks for listening. Our show is put together by Coral Lee, Amy Shuster, and Emily Hanhan. If you have a genius recipe that you actually feed yourself, and maybe your kids, I would always love to hear from you at genius@food52.com. And if you like The Genius Recipe Tapes and the Food52 podcast network and want to help us keep making it better and better, the very best thing you can do to support us is to take a moment to leave us a rating or review or subscribe. or share this episode with a friend who could also benefit from hearing that a chicken nugget can be an act of love and that they are doing just fine.