Food editor and Smart Mouth host Katherine Spiers joins Kristen for a Genius Session— they discuss mayo's (unsurprisingly) hot origin story, the absolute best cookies Katherine's ever eaten (and where to find them), and whether QR code menus are around to stay.
Referenced in this episode:
Genius-Hunter Extra Credit:
Kristen Miglore: Hi, I'm Kristen. Miglore, lifelong genius hunter for a decade. I've been unearthing the recipes that have changed the way we cook. Now on The Genius Recipe Tapes, we go behind the scenes with the geniuses themselves. This week. I'm talking with Katherine Spiers, a food journalist. She has gone from writing and editing at places like Gawker and LA Weekly to launching The Tablecakes Podcast Network, where she also hosts and produces the food history podcast. Smart Mouth. In each episode, Katherine talks to all sorts of interesting people, including Genius favorites, like Jaques Pepin and Andrea Nguyen, about the little-known stories behind their favorite dishes, as a way of finding out What makes them tick? Here's Katherine to share with us a bit about her journey in media and some of her all-time favorite genius cooking tips.
Katherine Spiers: I am a food editor traditionally. I co-own a media company, and I host a food history podcast called Smart Mouth; and I also have a food history newsletter. Right now, I don't know what I do or what I am.
Kristen: How did you find yourself wanting to move from food journalism to this multimedia maven track you're on?
Katherine: Well, I don't know if what happened was what I wanted to happen. I graduated from college in 2004, and I knew that I wanted to be a journalist at least half the places that I have worked for no longer exist, at least. So I have a friend who's, I guess, in the same similar boat, who's a former journalist in the traditional sense. But he did a podcast too that's similar to mine in that it requires a ton of research. And so I approached him and asked," What if we combined forces? So that's what we did. We formed this podcast, the first media company. And then, I started the Smart Mouth newsletter, which is contributors writing about food history. And then, I'm almost positive. I'm going to start another newsletter. That's more straightforward. Los Angeles restaurant reviews and almost micro-reviews because there's a little bit of a hole in the market for restaurant reviews in LA, given what a big town it is and a food-focused town. I'm going to get back out there. Maybe we'll see what happens.
Kristen: When you said, you're not sure what that means or what exactly you're doing. You know what you're doing in your way. You're creating the food journalism world that you want.
Katherine: That's a lovely thing to hear, and that's sweet of you to put it that way. So thank you.
Kristen: Can you tell us about any genius cooking ideas that you've come across lately that have either changed the way you cook at home or that you're itching to try yourself? Maybe that you've picked up from your research or a favorite LA restaurant or interviewing your Smart Mouth guests?
**Katherine:**Katherine: Honestly, top of mind, three things occur to me and. They're all about baking, but one is controversial. I think maybe the non-controversial one is I believe in adding. As much dairy as the dough can handle when you are making quick bread or scones. It's the stereotype of scones that they're dry, and people maybe don't like them as much. Follow the recipe, but add in that extra yogurt or sour cream sitting in your refrigerator! Do it! And your scones are going to be so much better than even most store-bought ones.
Kristen: So do you mean As much as the dough can handle. Do you mean as long as it can still hold a shape that it's supposed to have?
Katherine: Exactly. As long as it looks how it's supposed to look, keep adding it in. I was scared the first time I did it, but I had half a cup of sour cream leftover. I knew I wasn't going to eat it, so I threw it into a scone recipe. And they were the best scones anyone's ever eaten.
So that's one, that's one tip. The controversial thing, at least I think it is. Every pie crust I've ever made–and I'm good at making pie crust for some reason. I don't know how I came by it. I didn't study it or anything. I've always added more water to the pie crust than seems reasonable and more than the recipe calls for always. And I think that's another thing too, where you have to feel it and be, okay, well, this isn't, I haven't added so much water. That is all liquid now, but it makes it better, I suppose, less dry again, but people have a hard time with pie crusts, and I would say, oh, add more ice water, go for it. Go nuts with it.
Kristen: Yeah. Why would you want to struggle with dough that is breaking apart and challenging?
Katherine: I feel this is one of those things that people think is hard, and it's because they're punishing themselves and not putting in enough water.
Kristen: I always wonder how people get those beautiful rounds of dough that are rolled out perfectly thin and then have no raggedy edges. Do you know what I mean?
Katherine: I don't think naturally. Are you talking about in photos? Cause they had to have trimmed it, that's they had to,
Kristen: If I see a demo on Instagram or something and the person is lifting this beautiful, perfect circle. No excess flour around, no bits falling off.
Katherine: I understand why that seems aspirational. But at the same time, I feel baking is super fun when you've got flour everywhere. And I know that that means that you have to clean it up, but when you've got flour on yourself, That's fun. Make a mess.
Kristen: Yeah. And when the flour has gone from your neck down to halfway down your jeans.
Katherine: That's when you've baked something good. Also, in terms of recipes that I wanted to try twenty-five years ago, I went to a dude ranch in Arizona with my family and called white style. And they served these potato chip cookies, sugar cookies, but with potato chips mixed into them. And I remember, I feel that was one of my culinary awakenings. I was like, "What? You put salty and sweet?" I was 14; this was brand new information to me. And then, a few years ago, I heard someone say that they had invented putting salty, savory things in cookies, sweet cookies. Well, that can't be right. That's not a thing that I don't think anyone invented. And so, for whatever reason, it wasn't until last month that I emailed this ranch in Arizona, and I asked, "Hey, your potato chip cookie recipe, where did that come from?" And it was from a recipe in the eighties from this magazine called WorkBox Magazine, a magazine for textile and sewing enthusiasts. But they had a potato chip cookie recipe in one time, I think in the late eighties. And that's the origin. I love finding out stuff that. And now I want to make potato chip cookies.
Kristen: I'm curious what your favorite dishes are? If you were interviewing yourself on Smart Mouth, what would you pick?
Katherine: God, I'd be so mad at myself because the first thing I think of is mashed potatoes, which is you can't base a whole history episode around mashed potatoes. Mashed potatoes have always been, as far as I can remember, one of my favorite foods. And it's one of those things mom's spaghetti sauce, the way my mom makes. It's the right way. And she always did it very simply. It was milk and butter, but again, I was born in 1982. So growing up, it was 2% milk. As an adult with the agency, I put whole milk in them because we're not afraid of fat anymore. I make them very simple. I wouldn't say I like garlic mashed potatoes. Whatever, of course, I like garlic mashed potatoes, but those are not the proper mashed potatoes. I always cover mashed potatoes at Thanksgiving, which I do with friends every year. And I'm always worried that they think they're too plain. But then, honestly, here I am again advocating for adding more dairy to everything you like as much as the potato can handle. Sour cream is such a good stealth dairy product as well. One time, my grandma made them on Thanksgiving with olive oil as the fat. And I felt that was the worst Thanksgiving of my life. Terrible. I'm never coming back here. So again, with the food memories, it has to be a certain way for some dishes.
Kristen: Any examples come to mind where a guest magically picked a dish with a great story?
Katherine: I would say that sushi has an interesting story because the way it came about was about fermenting and the rice. And it was the point at which it switched over from being yuck, throw this fermented fish away to thinking, Hey, raw fish is interesting. Things like ramen and how it reversed from China to Japan and its course through east Asia. And then sometimes you get mayonnaise, which has. I don't want to, I don't want to say mayonnaise and sexy in the same sentence, but where mayonnaise came from, it came from the kitchen staff of this. This deposed royalty who was partying in the 1700s in the Mediterranean and known for his naked parties came up with this new sauce, mayonnaise. That episode was unique. My guest was a hilarious comedian, and his reactions to finding out this hot story of mayonnaise were so funny. The vast majority of them don't know the history of their favorite foods. Why would they, that's another thing that people generally know, but when they accidentally pick something that has a great story behind it, it's a delight. It's perfect.
Kristen (voiceover): Hey, it's Kristen. If you're enjoying this chat with Katherine, head over to The Genius Recipe Tapes and hit subscribe. So you don't miss out on other stories like this one and our recent conversation with Joshua David Stein, about how chicken nuggets can be an act of love, both for your kids and for yourself in the second half of this episode. We will get to hear more from Katherine on the Mayo brand that she would want at her naked Mayo party, the regionality of girl scout cookies, and the scorn that people feel for the QR code venue. We meet you back here for that.
Kristen: People do have such intense opinions about which mayonnaise I, which store-bought brand is, is. I guess that they would have it a naked party or,
Katherine: Well, if you have a naked party, now you got to go Hellman's for sure. Unless you're a Duke's person or a kewpie person.
Kristen: Yeah, but they're wrong. No, I'm saying, but this is how people fight about mayonnaise. It's so intense.
Katherine: And I feel like someone who's lived on the west coast, my whole life is Best Foods. Isn't that what we have? That's what we have. I feel if you go to an expensive grocery store, you can find Dukes, but. I wasn't aware until relatively recently of the mayonnaise fight.
Kristen: and I could be wrong. I haven't made a side-by-side comparison cause they're usually not in the same place at the same time, but I think best foods and Hellman's or the same thing.
Katherine: That's my understanding as well. Thinking about girl scout cookies are produced in different factories around the country. Maybe thin mints are always the same, but what do they call them? Samoa?
Kristen: Sometimes they're still called Samoas, and sometimes they're called caramel delights or something.
Katherine: Yes. Caramel delights. Right. Because they both, they do both. Yeah. And I think that it's partly a naming issue, but somewhat the bakery that they use. If you buy two of the same cookies in, in, on the west coast, on the east coast, they might be different even though sensibly they're using the same recipe.
Kristen: "Wait, what the heck! These caramel delights are not my caramel delights!" So it's a good thing that you buy girl scout cookies locally, usually, because then you won't know what you're missing until you're you move. I wonder if that explains in each different place I've lived. I was a girl scout for a long time. So I was very intimate with the cookie selling process for many years. And then, when I buy them out of nostalgia as an adult and to support local girl scout troops, I see new varieties. And I keep assuming that's this new thing that they came up with everywhere. You know, they're introducing this brand new, fantastic thing, but it might be that they're introducing different cookies in different areas.
Katherine: That might be as well. I know that some aren't available in all areas; there is a slightly different lineup regionally. The reason I have girl scout cookies on my mind is that they announced a new flavor. And it's almost a brownie bite with a caramel ribbon through it. If I remember correctly, it was funny because I put a link to that in my newsletter, and it was one sentence. There's a new girl scout cookie, and it's the most clicked-on thing I've included in my newsletter ever. Which is one of those, okay, everybody, I work hard at this, but I get it. Girl scout cookies are a national obsession.
Kristen: You have written about how the pandemic is, is changing and. Hypothetically change how we eat and shop. I'm wondering where you are now in thinking about that, both personally and things you see in the world.
Katherine: Yeah, it's so hard because I thought, as with everybody, we thought we were coming out of it this summer, and now it's back. And I feel some people have said okay, whatever, I'm eating crackers from now on. I'm ordering my crackers from Amazon, and I'm over it. I did a poll about this on all of my social media and in my newsletter regarding restaurants. I asked if they preferred QR code menus; when you look on your phone to see what the menu is or actual physical menus, overwhelmingly, people liked physical menus. I was surprised that it wasn't universal, but it was almost universal how people wanted to hold a piece of paper in their hands.
Kristen: Did you have any right in opportunity for people to explain why they hated QR codes?
Katherine: Yes, and it was one of those intangible–we keep hitting on this point. I feel in this discussion. People like what they like, and we want to be able to see it. Also, even if you're doing the system where you read the menu, and then a server comes and takes your order, even when you're reading the menu on your phone, I feel people are less inclined to ask questions about the menu using that. And the kind where you read the menu and order on your phone and a server only bring you food. I think that system is horrible. You can't ask questions. You can't custom order. Plus, these restaurants need workers because you pass by any restaurant area and use almost every restaurant door has helped wanted signs. So I feel that even if you're doing the QR code thing, you still need employees. So you might as well have employees doing everything they did before. have a server be a server. I think restaurants are going to go back to normal in that sense.
Kristen: That sounds comforting.
Katherine: Oh, good. I hope I'm right then.
Kristen: So bring back the paper menus and diner menus splattered with ketchup.
Katherine: Yeah. I mean, we love that. We love that.
Kristen (voiceover): Thanks for listening. Our show is put together by Coral Lee, Amy Shuster, and Emily Hanhan. If you have a genius recipe, or if you happen to know whether there is any difference whatsoever between Hellman's and best foods, and also how the heck you could tell the difference since they're always Clark Kent-ing and Super Man-ing on us, I would always love to hear from you genius@food52.com. And if you like The Genius Recipe Tapes and the Food52 Podcast network, and you want to help us keep making it better. The very best thing that you can do to support us is to take a moment to leave us a rating or review, or even subscribe if you haven't already. Thank you so much. Talk to you next week.